Plot and subplot

[Lisa S]

I seem to have this problem of writing a plot and subplot that are more parallel than intertwined.

I think I need some examples of how a plot and subplot should work together.  Anyone have any they could throw out?

Like, in this book, the plot is this and the subplot is this and here's what happens and how they are dependent on each other.

Or something.

I don't know.  My goal is to map out the 2nd half of my current WIP and I really need to get a handle on this.

Lisa

[sunnyleo]

I think I need some examples of how a plot and subplot should work together.  Anyone have any they could throw out?

I'll start off with some definitions so we know that we are talking about the same thing.

Plot - Main Character's (protagonist) storyline
Subplot - Storyline involving secondary characters.

Or do you mean a subplot involving the main character? If that is the case then the MC is the antagonist and the secondary character it the protagonist. It's just setup that way because the reader is allowed to spend time with the secondary character(who HAS a GOAL) without the MC around.

Anyhow, I do have an analysis of a film and it's subplots (at home - not at work) that I'll post later tonight if you want. In general, each plot has their own story arcs. The intertwining happens when the plotlines meet briefy or merge. Could you provide us with a hint of what you are trying to accomplish?

I didn't think many MG novels had subplots?

[Debby G]

I don't see anything wrong with parallel plots, as opposed to intertwined plots. I used parallel plots in my book, STORKY. In that, the main character had two main goals: To get the friend he had a crush on to love him and to get his father to treat him better. I was hoping as teens laughed over his romantic problems, they'd also realize something about self-esteem and families.

He fails at both goals. But along the way, he learns that if people treat him badly, it's not his fault. He also learns that people who treat him badly aren't worth spending time with anyway. He finds a different girl and a new father figure. He gains confidence from being liked by the new girl and the father figure. So he is able to stand up to the girl he used to like and his father. I thought having parallel plots brought home the self esteem issue in both a funny, romantic way (the girl problems) and a deeper, bittersweet way (the father problems). I think parallel plots can work well.

[sunnyleo]

I don't see anything wrong with parallel plots, as opposed to intertwined plots. I used parallel plots in my book, STORKY. In that, the main character had two main goals:

Neither do I.

But a true subplot (not dual goals) involves a protagonist that ISN'T the main character - ie. Empires Strikes Back ("Luke"  and  "Hans Solo + Leia"). I consider the second goal as a secondary plot, not a subplot.

[Lisa S]

I received a prof'l crit on my last MG.  The crit came from someone highly regarded in the children's community.  She wrote:

"I do feel that the balance of the of the plot/sub-plot needs some tinkering.  They seem to have equal weight in the book.  Your main storyline should provide the overall structure of the book - the backbone of the plot.  Your sub-plot should enrich this main story; perhaps explore a different side of the action or the emotional underpinnings of the plot.  But the sub-plot needs to depend on the main plot for its existence."  Then she talks about the specifics of the story and says, "So the resolution of the sub-plot was not inevitable.  It didn't depend exclusively on the main story line.  So I suggest you reconfigure the plot and sub-plot a bit so that they are more tightly woven together."

This is what I'm trying to get my head around for my current WIP. 

Thanks for your help,
Lisa

[sunnyleo]

The advice she gave you is correct. Subplots should have "less weight" than the main plot - meaning fewer pages in a novel. Subplots are used to express thematic concerns - they don't have to be as compelling as the main plot (they aren't carrying the novel).

The main plot and subplot are both structured in the standard story arc format(3-acts or 8-sequences or 5 beams or whatever you prefer). Without more concrete information about your novel, I can only guess than your major story plot points between the plot and subplot aren't related at all and possibly you delve into your subplot while ignoring the ongoing main plot until the end.

[Vijaya]

This is an interesting discussion, because I am working on my first novel and there are several tangents or subplots -- but all of them have come out of the main plot.  If I don't want my ms to become a tome, I must pick and choose the most compelling subplots and the ones that add to the main story.
An example: When Zachary Beaver Came to Town -- one of my favorites -- I loved how every little thing was accounted for at the very end and the subplots were integral to the main story.  They didn't have to be.  And yet, because of the threads not just intersecting, but woven so skillfully together, it was a very satisfying read.  I'm still thinking about the characters in that dusty old town ... long after the book has been put away.
Vijaya

[jules]

This is exactly what I need to learn more about! So can I ask a few questions?

sunnyleo, you refer to "standard story arc format(3-acts or 8-sequences or 5 beams or whatever you prefer)"--where can I read or learn more about this? I've been to bookstores and hunted through fiction and screenplay writing books and have seen mention of the term "story arc" but never specific details about it such acts/sequences/beams, or how to analyze it in your own story. I have a couple excellent books in the Writer's Digest writing series that discuss plotting and beginning/middle/end in great detail, but they don't mention story arc itself. I think I understand what story arc is, that it's created by tension and has to build and has a certain shape, and I have my own weird invented way of plotting a story's arc to help me in revising, but then comments I get on my manuscripts prove to me I evidently don't get it. Can you give me a good title or would I need to take a certain type of class to learn about this in an in-depth way?

And about subplots--I have never heard or read that subplots have to involve a protagonist other than the main character. Interesting. Is this common knowlegde that I have just somehow not absorbed? I thought a subplot could also be one of the main character's other or more minor problems, directly or indirectly linked to the main problem. So much to learn. I'd appreciate any advice you or anyone can give me in terms of the books or types or courses that would be helpful.

Thanks,
Julie

[sunnyleo]

This is exactly what I need to learn more about! So can I ask a few questions?

sunnyleo, you refer to "standard story arc format(3-acts or 8-sequences or 5 beams or whatever you prefer)"--where can I read or learn more about this?

All the methods I discuss below are for plotting. NOT all stories rely on plots. Some stories are just philosophical or quiet (dealing with internal/personal issues).

3-Act design comes from Artisole's Poetics (which I haven't read, but the knowledge has been distilled) - it's the least useful system in actual practice, but it's nice to analyze a story with. It's like discussing theme and symbolism before you have your plot worked out.

8-Sequences is documented in "Screenwriting: The Sequence Approach" - never read it, but I was taught a variant of it years ago. 80% of films follow a standard "Hero's Journey" model created by Joseph Campbell. 20% of films have very complicated non-standard story structures. I'm not sure how the above book defines a sequence, but it was defined to be as a series of related events regarding a dramatic question. A film that illustrate sequences best is "Hannah and Her Sisters" - the sequences are delineated by the titles! If you have subplots - sequences can overlap and run in parallel.

I was taught 5 beams in my workshops - it's a mix of Syd Field and other writers. My education is a mish mash of animation writing, screenwriting and novel writing. Beams are structural key plot points in the story.

Linear plots are the WORST for long story forms - i.e problem + complication + complication + complication + crisis + climax + conclusion - boooring.

There are many other story structuring methods out there. Use whatever helps you organize your thoughts and novel best.

[sunnyleo]

And about subplots--I have never heard or read that subplots have to involve a protagonist other than the main character. Interesting. Is this common knowlegde that I have just somehow not absorbed? I thought a subplot could also be one of the main character's other or more minor problems, directly or indirectly linked to the main problem. So much to learn. I'd appreciate any advice you or anyone can give me in terms of the books or types or courses that would be helpful.

If the main character has two major goals and two plotlines, the plotlines will be called by most people as the "plot" and "subplot."

I use the term subplot slightly differently(just to confuse people!) - a secondary plot that involves the main character, but the protagonist (the character a goal who has to overcome obstacles) doesn't have to be the main character - it could be a secondary character or the enemy.

If the protagonist is the main character's best friend or mother or neighbour, the subplot should relate (thematically or actual connection) to the main plot - otherwise it will feel disconnected and rather pointless. If the main character is the protagonist (i.e this is the secondary goal in the novel), then the plot is already related/intertwined. Subplots can be very short and are triggered by a character wanting something strongly - combined with the willingness of the author to spend novel time resolving whether the character gets what he or she wants.

Some novels (Seedfolks by Paul Fleischman comes to mind) don't follow traditional storytelling structure so they don't really have subplots - all characters and all plots are of equal weight and run in parallel.

[jules]

sunnyloe, thanks for all the information! Now I have something to go on. I'll have to look up some of those names and titles and see if I can make any better sense of "story arc".
Julie

[sunnyleo]

sunnyloe, thanks for all the information! Now I have something to go on.

You're welcome! I heard good things about "The Writer's Journey" by Christopher Vogler too, but I haven't read it. Even with the above I still have plot pacing issues (I have a habit of overloading my plot).

If anybody has good references on how to write better description and in dialects/slang, give me a shout.

[katep]

Fantastic discussion.  Thanks, everyone!  My problem is too many subplots reflecting on the same old theme without adding much.  I'm going to go take some out right now.

[sunnyleo]

Just wanted to add a few more than came to mind:

"Story Structure Architect" by Victoria Schimdt - just picked it up and it seems like a nice reference.

And two others I saw (can't vouch for the quality) which are case-studies of existing stories. Eventually I'll get to these, but I'm focusing on my other weaknesses:

"Narrative Design" by Madison Smartt Bell
"Good Scripts, Bad Scripts" by Tom Pope.

[jules]

Thanks for the titles, sunnyleo!

[WriterRoss]

This is such an interesting, educational thread. I love talking shop.

What do you think about Robert McKee's STORY?


Has anyone taken his course?

I know a few people who swear by it.

-Pamela

[sunnyleo]

What do you think about Robert McKee's STORY?

I haven't taken his course or read his book, but I understand he is more descriptive than prescriptive. As a writer beyond the "beginner stage" these days, I want hard prescriptive advice - regardless of if I agree with it or not because I will eventually develop my own prescriptive (how-tos) story-writing system through experience and book knowledge.

Advice like "plots and subplots should mesh" and "use the active voice" and "endings should be dramatic" aren't too useful to me. I love absorbing story mechanics and learning hows and when to use certain devices. I just attended a workshop on flashbacks + flashforwards and learnt about the mechanics of them (pitfalls, advantages, how to structure them, etc.). I refused to use flashbacks because I was afraid of muddling my story, but now I understand their purpose and feel a little more comfortable with them....

To summarize - "Thou shalt not use the passive voice" is great advice, but you need to read "Revising Prose" to understand how to make sentences "active" and when to use the passive voice.

[TracyH]

Lisa S. - I have struggled with this alot, how to weave everything together.  Here is the best help I have found.  Read Bridge to Terebithia by Katherine Paterson.  Then pick up a copy of Crafting Stories for Children by Nancy Lamb.  She talks about throughline rather than plot.  But she takes Bridge apart and shows you why it works.  I liked this example because Bridge is very character driven and more difficult to analyze.  But it clearly shows how all the minor subplots are weaving together to bring accross the various themes of the novel.  And it won a Newberry, so you can't go wrong.

Another good example is Winn Dixie.  The main story line is, of course, India Opal and Winn Dixie.  But DiCamillo carefully weaves other stoylines in, Otis in the pet shop, Miss Franny Block in the library, Gloria Dump at her house and the boys Stevie and Dunlap.  They all come together in the end and they all served a purpose in helping India Opal move on and let her mother go.

Although I have found classes and "how to" books to be extremely helpful, the best learning tool has been to read tons of middle grade novels.  Start with the Newberry's and Newberry honor's.  But read them twice.  Once for pleasure and then a second time to analyze.  Those books taught me how to write.

[sunnyleo]

Another good example is Winn Dixie.  The main story line is, of course, India Opal and Winn Dixie.  But DiCamillo carefully weaves other stoylines in, Otis in the pet shop, Miss Franny Block in the library, Gloria Dump at her house and the boys Stevie and Dunlap.  They all come together in the end and they all served a purpose in helping India Opal move on and let her mother go.

Great advice on the Nancy Lamb book (will check it out), but I would not recommend analyzing "Because of Winn Dixie" for plotting advice. It's a little too quiet(more internal conflict than external) and much of it's charm based on the narrator's southern voice. If you are feeling brave, read the works of master plotters like JK Rowling, Phillip Pullman, and Kenneth Oppel.

BTW "How-to" books are good for learning craft (how to edit and fix problems). The rest is mystical...

[TracyH]

I guess everything depends on the kind of fiction you are trying to write.  Heavily plotted books never helped me because they are a whole different animal than what I write.  Since Lisa is struggling with "underpinnings", I still think the best help comes from those books that are masterful in that way.  It sounds very much like Lisa has her plot down, she's just not sure how to tie things together.

I stand by my advice to read Winn Dixie.  Those are the types of books that really nail down the underpinnings and, when analyzed, can break down the mystique as well.  I keep a handful of books handy - Winn Dixie, To Kill a Mockingbird, Ellen Foster, Wringer, Missing May, The Great Gilly Hopkins, Holes, Walk Two Moons and Bridge to Terebithia.  Those are my bibles.

[sunnyleo]

I stand by my advice to read Winn Dixie.  Those are the types of books that really nail down the underpinnings and, when analyzed, can break down the mystique as well.  I keep a handful of books handy - Winn Dixie, To Kill a Mockingbird, Ellen Foster, Wringer, Missing May, The Great Gilly Hopkins, Holes, Walk Two Moons and Bridge to Terebithia.  Those are my bibles.

Yeah I noticed you've mentioned a few quiet books. As a guy, I want action packed plots which are usually filled with melodrama. Rowling, Pullman, Oppel and to some degree Avi, Sachar, Snicket, Dahl, Korman and even Beverly Cleary consistently provide it to for me. I'm a very mainstream children's writer - strong plots and quirky middle-grade characters - aka "commercial." It's also the type of children's book I love to read - as I hate literary YAs. My adult tastes are completely eccentric tho'.