Author Topic: So what about the language? (Read 831 times)

C. Lee McKenzie · « **on:** October 01, 2012, 02:49 PM »

I was reading some blogs today and a couple of times the issue of language came up. One person wrote how she'd worked hard at getting the characters and the plot and the setting down, but now was thinking she should improve the way her prose read.

Yes to that! I love books that capture the cadence of our language and create beautiful sound as well as images. This blogger also asked a good question, "How do you go about improving your prose?" I suggested reading poetry. Poetry's all about sound and rhythm to create meaning and stir emotion.

What advice would you give someone who is working on this aspect of their craft? Or, do you think it's not that important? A lot of best selling books don't have the most beautiful language flow, right?

Abracabarbara · « **Reply #1 on:** October 01, 2012, 04:02 PM »

I suppose language IS important depending on the type of book one is writing and the intended audience. I always thought that language is just one part of "writing"... the others being plot, character, voice etc..

I think that a lot of those best selling books have other qualities that have a very strong appeal and connection to their readership.

And some readers ARE really after great language which is subjective.. and is not necessarily a consumer hook.

I love different books for different reasons and language could be only one of them.

olmue · « **Reply #2 on:** October 01, 2012, 04:12 PM »

I think the best use of language is the language that's appropriate for the character you're bringing to life and the story you're trying to tell. I think language should bring you closer into your character, using unique ways of describing things that fit in line with what that POV character is like. Case in point: The Scorpio Races isn't all flowery, purple prose. They are all just "regular" words. But the language is, nevertheless, delightful to read, because it so perfectly expresses what the characters are feeling, and lets the reader feel that, too. So if I were to focus on language, I'd focus on, as ecb once told me here on the boards, nouns and verbs. Finding the most specific ones for the scene and character. They might be poetic--but they might emphatically NOT be.

That said, sometimes the main thrust of the book is not the language, and you want to write invisibly, so you can showcase other elements and not distract from what the story is trying to be.

Amanda Coppedge · « **Reply #3 on:** October 01, 2012, 04:33 PM »

I agree--it depends on the story. I have read lovely spare prose and I have read lovely lush prose and loved them both for very different reasons.

rab · « **Reply #4 on:** October 01, 2012, 04:39 PM »

This is a question I've been thinking about a lot because I just read Michael Cunningham's New Yorker book blog post about serving on the Pulitzer jury this past year. He talked about the different things the three members of the jury valued the most, and for him, one of the most important things is beautiful sentences. He gave examples from each of the three finalists, and it was fascinating to see the comment section: clearly, not all New Yorker book blog readers agree on what a well-written sentence is. It's pretty subjective.

But I think that even if you want to write invisibly, as Rose mentions---in fact, ESPECIALLY if you want your writing to be invisible---you have to pay very close attention to it. Hemingway stuck mostly to "regular" words, and he did so on purpose, listening to the rhythm of his prose. Flowery prose is not at all the same thing as good prose, at least not in my opinion.

I second what Rose learned from ecb, about focusing on nouns and verbs, and I'd add to that the common advice of deleting all but the most essential adverbs. Reading your work aloud can help some people, or having someone else read it aloud to you. Doing so can help you hear words and phrases that stick out or that you stumble over.

JulieM · « **Reply #5 on:** October 01, 2012, 04:45 PM »

To me beautiful language is what sets apart truly wonderful books from the rest, which nevertheless may tell a great story. Examples include The Book Thief, The Scorpio Races and A Tale of Two Cities. They stay with me for a long, long time.

ktlc1113 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 02, 2012, 01:44 PM »

To address the question about how to work on the language part of craft, I think uniqueness is important. What is the character's own unique world view and how would he/she express that? I love when I see a sentence that describes something (whether it be a sunset, the way someone moves, a sound, whatever!) in a way I've never thought of it before, but also in a way that totally works for the character and the story.

I also second the advice to look at nouns and verbs, and try to make them as active and strong as possible. Take a look at how many times "was" or "is" is used in the prose and see if you could come up with a better way to write those sentences. Don't rely on adverbs or even adjectives to carry the language.

KimJo · « **Reply #7 on:** October 02, 2012, 02:43 PM »

Definitely depends on the character, and on the voice of the author. And on whether it's first or third person. And on a lot of things...

I'm doing final edits right now (last step before galley) on a YA novel, and the proofer kept putting in "Per CMOS, this is poor phrasing and should be phrased this way." I responded to one comment with: "Okay, but this is a 15-year-old boy who would probably use poor phrasing and has never heard of CMOS." The book is first-person narration, and the phrasing works for my character. (And I can get away with comments like that with this particular publisher/editor; I wouldn't recommend it in general...)

So language is definitely important in fiction, but there are as many ways to do it right as there are authors and characters, in my opinion...

Pons · « **Reply #8 on:** October 02, 2012, 04:17 PM »

If you want to learn to write good prose, read good prose. Try Mark Twain, who is known for never having written a bad sentence, and for a different voice try F. Scott Fitzgerald. The opening to his short story, A Diamond as Big as the Ritz, literally takes my breath away. You can also read The Miraculous Journey of Edward Tulane by DiCamillo. Beautiful, powerful prose.

I don't know exactly how to explain this, but I'm going to dissent a bit from earlier opinions. Well written prose is not just one aspect of a book like character, plot, or dialogue. Your prose infuses all other aspects of your book by either strengthening them or weakening them. There are reasons why a short Anglo-Saxon word may carry more power in a sentence than a longer Latinate equivalent. Then again there are places where the Latin based word is better. Shakespeare understood this beautifully.

Good, strong, beautifully written prose (not overly written or purple prose) brings a strength and readability to your story nothing else can. It can support any voice, genre, or reading level. It can be humorous or dramatic. Its presence can elevate a simple story, and its lack can sink even the grandest concept.

We are caretakers of an amazingly subtle, complex, and powerful language. We need to learn to respect it and make it work for us. And now I will climb down off my soapbox.

Laurel

hazelnut · « **Reply #9 on:** October 02, 2012, 07:09 PM »

Quote

A lot of best selling books don't have the most beautiful language flow, right?

Yes and here's why: In COMMERCIAL fiction (genres like mysteries, thrillers, romance ...) the language/wording is secondary to how the characters drive the story and how the climax and resolution are handled. People tolerate mediocre prose as long as they're caught up in the story and eager to see how it ends.

However, in LITERARY fiction, fresh, evocative, memorable language is the most important, although the language should illuminate complex, dimensional characters. By commercial standards, though, the plot can be lame and the ending feel incomplete or lackluster.

Of course, some authors can do both -- use literary language and have a commercially viable plot. Their work is more likely to be valued because agents and editors appreciate good writing, and well-worded prose elevates the book's quality. Also, children's librarians and teachers prefer to promote books of high quality. A number of children's writing books address this topic, including Harold Underdown's The Complete Idiot's Guide to Publishing Children's Books and Nancy Lamb's The Writer's Guide to Crafting Stories for Children.

C. Lee McKenzie · « **Reply #10 on:** October 04, 2012, 10:53 AM »

So many excellent replies to this post! And it's interesting that none are contradictory. Each approaches a different aspect or enhances a previous comment about the role "beautiful prose" plays in a story. I think I should compile these thoughts and put them into a checklist for writers. They are all so helpful.

Glad I asked this question because you've articulated my feelings so well!

Kurtis · « **Reply #11 on:** October 11, 2012, 10:42 AM »

Good question about how to teach it -- I find it very hard to teach "voice", and a lot of the rules/wisdom about language has the effect of making everyone write like Raymond Carver (or rather, write like Gordon Lish edited Raymond Carver). It's all about concision, using strong verbs, etc., and I think the reason there is so much emphasis on those techniques is because it is teachable.

Language and style come with learning who you are a writer and doing lots and lots of reading and writing to find your peculiar habits. Granted there are some stylistic chameleons like MT Anderson who can have a very different style for each book but most people just find their way of telling a story and stick with it. I agree that reading poetry, or reading highly stylized fiction, can help expand your awareness of written language and may impact your work.

TracyH · « **Reply #12 on:** October 11, 2012, 12:09 PM »

Voice is so hard to teach, like Kurtis said. For me, it's about loosening up and letting my mind roam free instead of keeping it on a leash of correct grammar and acceptable phrasing, etc. This means my editor has lots of question marks throughout my pages and says things like, "what does this mean?" Then I know I went too far. But I'd rather go too far than not far enough (in other areas, I don't go far enough, but that's a whole 'nother thread).

One of the things I do with my daughter when she gets a writing assignment is draw a big box. And in the box we put all of those "first ideas" that come to her. The kinds of words and ideas that 9 out of 10 people will also come up with. Then we stretch and try to reach ideas that are "outside the box". Some of them are rediculous and we laugh. But then she comes up with gold.

I think when you get in the habit of reaching for imagery and ideas that are outside that box, you are really reaching deep inside yourself, and that is where your voice lives.

Vijaya · « **Reply #13 on:** October 11, 2012, 09:11 PM »

At a recent conference, Stephanie Greene talked about how you cannot superimpose voice upon a story -- it comes from within. So how to improve prose? Read poetry, the classics (they've endured for a reason) ... then write it up. Yes, I mean copying it. Something about writing things down sticks it in your brain better. You can't help but absorb some of the rhythms and cadences. In the ICL course I teach, one of the exercises is a descriptive lesson. This is where I really emphasize the importance of specific nouns and strong verbs (Rose already mentioned it).

Writing is a lifelong journey, that's for sure.
Vijaya

Anthony · « **Reply #14 on:** October 11, 2012, 10:17 PM »

I'll second (or third?) the notion that beautifully-flowing prose doesn't have to depend on flowery words. It's often more about the rhythm and construction of the sentences. One of my favorite children's books to read out loud is Mooseltoe. It uses pretty basic words for the most part, but the phrasing is so much fun to read. Perfectly perfect.

mghiggins · « **Reply #15 on:** October 12, 2012, 09:54 AM »

Quote from: TracyH on October 11, 2012, 12:09 PM

I think when you get in the habit of reaching for imagery and ideas that are outside that box, you are really reaching deep inside yourself, and that is where your voice lives.

Love this. I'm going to tattoo it on the inside of my forehead.

TracyH · « **Reply #16 on:** October 12, 2012, 11:24 AM »

Quote from: mg higgins on October 12, 2012, 09:54 AM

Love this. I'm going to tattoo it on the inside of my forehead.

C. Lee McKenzie · « **Reply #17 on:** October 18, 2012, 11:28 AM »

I love these comments about language and voice and finding that inside yourself rather than reaching for the quick fix of the cliche or how someone else has worded an idea. MG if you find a way to do that tattoo thing, call me.

Kurtis is wonderful in saying this is teachable. Reading, paying attention to what works and what doesn't, and, of course, writing a lot is what it takes.

thunderingelephants · « **Reply #18 on:** November 04, 2012, 08:40 AM »

I'm jumping into this thread at probably the wrong time, but I have a problem that hopefully one of can steer me elsewhere with.
I like the language I use and it's been noted amongst a few critiques that I flow well but do tend to use long paragraphs because of my long-windedness.

Any thoughts on how I can adapt?

C. Lee McKenzie · « **Reply #19 on:** November 05, 2012, 03:15 PM »

Quote from: thunderingelephants on November 04, 2012, 08:40 AM

I'm jumping into this thread at probably the wrong time, but I have a problem that hopefully one of can steer me elsewhere with.
I like the language I use and it's been noted amongst a few critiques that I flow well but do tend to use long paragraphs because of my long-windedness.

Any thoughts on how I can adapt?

I don't have trouble with long graphs if the sentences in them are varied in style and length. When there's repetitive structures and sentences that are all short or all long, I have a problem with that. I also have trouble if the paragraph is too ambitious and tackles a lot of different ideas instead of focusing on developing one.

Maybe someone else has a different take on this, but that's how I feel.

Christine B. · « **Reply #20 on:** November 05, 2012, 04:31 PM »

Quote from: thunderingelephants on November 04, 2012, 08:40 AM

I'm jumping into this thread at probably the wrong time, but I have a problem that hopefully one of can steer me elsewhere with.
I like the language I use and it's been noted amongst a few critiques that I flow well but do tend to use long paragraphs because of my long-windedness.

Any thoughts on how I can adapt?

I agree with C. Lee that long paragraphs are not always bad. When long paragraphs don't read well, I think it's often because they are either expository, or too much summary or description presented at once. One solution to the latter two is to see which summary paragraphs can be incorporated as scenes, and what description can turn into details throughout the scene rather than as a long chunk of description. The solution to expository dialogue is harder because it usually happens (to me at least) when I have to incorporate backstory to make a scene work and don't know where else to put it. Still working on how to solve this one! It's harder to address because it probably means doing a more significant rework of what came before it.

thunderingelephants · « **Reply #21 on:** November 05, 2012, 04:31 PM »

I think my paragraphs are appropriate in length, but where I tend to slip up is that I have a habit of explaining too much in narration. It could be explained in shorter sentences. So I know where I'm going wrong but don't know how to fix it. It's a bit of a predicament for me.

Christine B. · « **Reply #22 on:** November 05, 2012, 06:51 PM »

Quote from: thunderingelephants on November 05, 2012, 04:31 PM

So I know where I'm going wrong but don't know how to fix it.

Knowing is half the battle...right...? If you figure out how to solve this one...please let me know!

AnnH · « **Reply #23 on:** November 05, 2012, 07:27 PM »

I remember reading somehwhere (maybe a blueboarder would know) that if you really love a sentence you wrote, you should cut it out of your manuscript!

C. Lee McKenzie · « **Reply #24 on:** November 09, 2012, 05:31 PM »

ChristineCA makes a great point. I guess what it comes down to is asking yourself if what you've put into a very long graph could be more vividly revealed in another way.

Well, like she said, at least you recognize the issue, so now you can work on solving it.

writerjenn · « **Reply #25 on:** November 09, 2012, 07:22 PM »

Yes to reading poetry. Also short stories.
I think this is a part of our craft that's worth working on. It's one of those things that can hook readers even though they're not aware of it. It increases the staying power of a book.

lyrical · « **Reply #26 on:** November 09, 2012, 10:50 PM »

I love a beautifully written novel, but I think it goes beyond language. That lovely turn of phrase needs to do something for the story too...advance the plot, flesh out characters, increase tension in a scene, etc.... That is where the magic happens.

I am slow to learn this lesson. I have heard the advice to "read like a writer" for years, but I didn't get it. I just read. Lately, when I have a good book, I look at the author's style and take some mental notes on things. Lately it is studying how inner thoughts are conveyed to enrich the story while not being too much tell (in the show, don't tell category).

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Author Topic: So what about the language? (Read 831 times)