Topic: Mentioning other MG books in your MG book

[Jaina]

I thought this might make an interesting topic for discussion.  I'm putting here under MG because it seems mostly a MG thing--or maybe I just think that because I read so much MG and not as much Everything Else.

I've noticed that more authors of contemporary MG are referencing other MG books in their stories.  I'm guilty of this myself, yet something about it bothers me, so I've been trying to sort it out in my head.

More or less, I'm talking about characters in MG stories who refer to Harry Potter or any other MG-ish book.  Naturally, there will always be references to pop culture in contemporary stories--sometimes very specific references to Star Wars, etc.  That's not really what I'm talking about.  I mean MGs that mention other MGs--usually classics like A Wrinkle in Time or very popular contemporary books, like Wimpy Kid, etc.

Why I like it:
I love books.  The more books that are referred to, the better.  It's a great way for kids to learn about other books they might enjoy.  It shows kid readers of the current story that reading is cool and that other kids read.  Heck, I've learned about books this way--for example, I had never heard of the Green Knowe books or the Edward Eager books (I know--can you believe it?) until kid characters in a MG story mentioned them, and I went to look them up.  Thoughtful, bookish characters are always a winner with me.

Why I understand it:
Writers are bookish people who often draw inspiration from books and make connections with books, so why not let their characters and stories do the same?

Why I don't like it:
It annoys me when I feel like the author of a book is trying to "borrow" popularity, if you will, by mentioning the title of another book--especially a wildly popular book series, like Wimpy Kid.  It's almost as if the author knows he/she will get an instant (positive) reaction from readers ("OMG, this book said Harry Potter!  I LOVE Harry Potter!") that will then carry over to his/her book ("These kids talked about Hermione!  They're just like me!  I like them--they're cool!").  I know that seems kind of dumb, but I honestly think that at a basic (maybe subconscious) level, readers perk up and make that connection, awarding mental "cool points" to the story they're reading because it said the name of their favorite whatever-it-is.

Also, I've always felt that including too many pop culture references (iPod, popular TV characters, etc.) will date your book badly, so unless you are TRYING to firmly set it in a certain time period (and some books do call for that), you probably want to avoid being too "hip" with your language and references.  Therefore, it seems like the only books your characters should discuss should be ones you are dead certain will remain classics, if you know what I mean.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?  Like I said--guilty as charged.  I have done this in a manuscript--not for "cool points," but because the story had something to do with a classic.  But I have seen it done (and sometimes overdone) quite a bit in recent MG books, as well.  I've also seen it done very well and have laughed and enjoyed stories (such as E. Nesbit's or Edward Eager's books) in which book-loving kids make connections between stories and their adventures. 

[olmue]

I think, when you mention contemporary books (by that I mean books that are current right now, not that they are in the contemporary genre), it asserts that those are books and your story is reality. In some ways, it almost forces your book to be realistic, if that makes sense. Because those book worlds aren't yours to take, you can't add them to your own universe. So by default, they are purely fictional. I sort of felt this way when I read Breadcrumbs. I loved all the references, and yet--in a way, it took away the magic from the story, too. If all those books were just books, then what is happening now must be real. Which made me wonder just how real the magic was in that book.

Or maybe I'm just overthinking this.

I do love picking out references, though! And I think there's a difference between referencing books and movies. They exist on different planes, you know?

[Anne Marie]

It doesn't work when it seems forced.

That said, I've got references to SWALLOWS AND AMAZONS in my MG WIP, but since it was published in 1927 in England and few people have read it, I don't think I get cool points for it.

[MysteryRobin]

The place I saw this done really well was in Breadcrumbs. I thought it really worked because the MC was really into fantasy worlds and books and rather than just saying, "Oh, I just finished Harry Potter" she referenced the White Witch (Narnia) and other ideas and characters...

And I liked the use of A Wrinkle in Time in When You Reach Me. It also tied in with a central theme of the book, I thought.

The reason it sometimes doesn't work for me is that it can date the book, and it also can take me out of the story. Just like when characters on a tv show are going to a movie that's out right now. I think there's something about a story I'm reading that feels like it should take place in a similar but parallel universe to mine where things aren't exactly the same. Like, they're *in* fiction, so they shouldn't *reference* fiction. It's like saying you're going to Disneyland when you're already there. That's just a weird way to explain the thoughts I have when I read the references - with the above exceptions (and Jasper Fforde - but that's different altogether)

[olmue]

:D I was thinking of Jasper Fforde, too. But that was with a classic, and he really did incorporate that universe into his own (or vice versa).

[lizstraw]

  I think if it is not forced or jammed down the readers throat, mentioning other books is not a big deal, as long as it is kept to a minimal amount.  Harry Potter is a good example, these books are still being read, perhaps not as much as they were when they first came out, but they are part of our culture that covers several years.  You can make a reference to wishing you had a magic wand, an invisibility cloak, etc. and most readers would pick up on the reference. 

Just mentioning a random book that may not have as wide a reading as some of the books mentioned, you may be pushing it.

I say don't over think the process.  If your character is a reader, state what kind of book they like to read and let it go, if an adult would happen to mention have you read Harry Potter it would be a great time for the old eye roll.

[MysteryRobin]

Rose - we cross-posted and I hadn't read your comment yet. I think what you said is what I was getting at, too, with the parallel universe thing. For some reason it worked for me in Breadcrumbs, but often it doesn't work for me, for the reasons you said (and articulated better than I did!)

[Jen]

If it's done well, I don't even notice, and I think it does give me a sense of connection with the characters and what I'm reading.  

But a lot of times, it just takes me out of the book.  In the science/philosophy of fiction, we talk a lot about "fictional worlds" and how those worlds are similar to and different from the real one.  In general, people seem to have a tendency to assume "it's like our world unless specified otherwise" in many areas; however, I think things get muddied when you're talking about pieces of fiction that actually exist (it seems weird to call them "real fiction") embedded in the fictional world of another book, because (especially if you're referring to more contemporary or ongoing series), it feels like there's an implied potential for an infinite feedback loop.  If we assume (or are told) that Book A exists as a book in the world of Book B, it seems likely that means that MANY (if not most) of the books from our world exist in Book B. Which isn't problematic unless we're given some indication that any "real book" exist in Book A, in which case it seems likely that MANY real books exist in Book A... and that leads to head-scratching conclusion that maybe Book B--which REFERENCES Book A--should also exist in Book A.  And that's impossible!

So basically, whenever I see a reference to a book that feels forced, my brain stops thinking about the story and starts thinking the above, which REALLY disrupts my experience of the text.

And yet, there are many times when I've enjoyed this kind of trope!  I love-love-love seeing books I recognize referenced or present on television shows or movies (so maybe my brain doesn't fritz out when it's cross-media?), and I actually have no problems seeing movies referenced within movies (Will Gluck does this a lot--Easy A is rife with scenes and references to John Hughes movies, and they show a whole scene from Bring It On in Fired Up).

[Marissa Doyle]

It doesn't work when it seems forced.

That said, I've got references to SWALLOWS AND AMAZONS in my MG WIP, but since it was published in 1927 in England and few people have read it, I don't think I get cool points for it.

You do with me, AM!

[Anne Marie]

Thanks, Marissa.

Jen, you make my head spin.  And you were just doing that on Twitter, too!

[Kurtis]

Robin named the two I thought of right away.

Roger Sutton wrote a blog about this -- he just commented wryly that MG and YA authors do it a lot. I've done it myself (in every book) so I can't judge. ;-) But intertextuality is as old as books.

[MysteryRobin]

To make it weirder... pop culture references in movies and tv don't bother me at all. I loved Gilmore Girls and sort of felt like it was a treasure hunt to get all the references... I'm not sure how that's different, but somehow it is... (or I'm just not normal)

[Jo Knowles]

What a great discussion!

I am guilty of this for the first time in my book that comes out next month. The mother in the book has named all the kids after her favorite characters from books, which include Catcher in the Rye, Charlotte's Web, Charlie and The Chocolate Factory and A Little Princess.

So far no one has criticized that aspect of the book. *knocks wood*

I think the true classics are safe, but mentioning things like Wimpy Kid or other more contemporary books feels too close to home, too close to my own reality. I don't know why that makes me feel uncomfortable, but it does. It pulls me right out of the book. Interesting discussion!

Jo

[Mara]

One thing I've seen is references that seem less intended to "borrow cool" than to advertise friends' books. This seems especially forced when they're not well known. I can't think of an example right now, other than one a friend did years ago for me, which was kind and well-meant but embarrassed me because the book of mine she named didn't work in the context of her story.

But a related thing bugged me in the third Penderwicks book, which slipped in references to people in the publishing world. I love the Penderwicks books otherwise, and I suppose the references slid right past kid readers who had never heard the names, but it felt totally tacked-on to me.

[Jaina]

I think you've hit on it, all.  I dislike things that take me out of a story.  I've thought it over and for some reason I can tolerate kids in stories mentioning classic books, but if they mention modern books, the "story world" gets a little shattered, as Jen said.

For example, in my favorite Streatfeild books, the kids read Wind in the Willows and The Secret Garden (it's not a big part of the story--they just mention these titles).  I never had a problem with that.  I can still grasp that those characters are "real" in a "story world" where The Secret Garden is a classic, as well. 

I think A Wrinkle in Time is borderline for me.  I can accept that in a story, though it give me pause.

But anything newer than that, and I run into this "Huh?" feeling.  Stop mentioning MY world, book! 

Seems silly, when I'm reading a contemporary, realistic book set in a world VERY much like my own, but there you have it.

[mrh]

Jaina, I'm totally with you on all points. It's not that this has never been done before, but it just suddenly seems to have exploded as this trend I'm seeing everywhere. And I didn't mind it before I NOTICED it. Now, it's a distraction.

Along with the reason you gave for not liking it, another reason I don't is that it can tend to distance readers who don't know those books. It's like the author is handicapping readers' chances of ID-ing with the MC by inserting references they may not get. Nobody wants to feel they're not in the club. And in cases where everybody gets it, it's often either too easy (Harry Potter) or too liable to date the book (Wimpy Kid). Although, with the shorter life of books today, one almost has to ask if dating matters much anymore.

I'd also hate to think these references are becoming another form of promotion. That we are now running commercials for our favorite, or our friends', or our publishers', books within our own work.

[MysteryRobin]

One thing I've seen is references that seem less intended to "borrow cool" than to advertise friends' books. This seems especially forced when they're not well known. I can't think of an example right now, other than one a friend did years ago for me, which was kind and well-meant but embarrassed me because the book of mine she named didn't work in the context of her story.

But a related thing bugged me in the third Penderwicks book, which slipped in references to people in the publishing world. I love the Penderwicks books otherwise, and I suppose the references slid right past kid readers who had never heard the names, but it felt totally tacked-on to me.

I read a mystery by a well known, successful mystery author and the MC referenced a very obscure mystery that felt very much like an advertisement, with the MC even making a note to himself to go buy the book and read it. I just happened to have read that very obscure mystery and had been disappointed with how bad it was because I loved the concept so much, so it made me lose a little bit of respect for this more successful author... anyway, that's my example of "references gone bad"

[Car]

I don't mind as long authors aren't going overboard or blatantly advertising. And some, like When You Reach Me, are essential to the story. In the interest of full disclosure, though, I must admit I snuck in a reference to Ingrid Law's SAVVY in my middle grade novel. I did so because the book is one of three things that inspired me to move from writing non-fiction to fiction. I feel grateful I got to tell Ingrid that in person when I met her at a book signing in my town and I hope to send her a copy of my book when it's published someday. 

[Kurtis]

I see a lot of music in MG and YA and it feels like the author is telling teens what they ought to be listening to. All of my books have music allusions, but they are passing snippets of music in scenes; the MC doesn't self-identify as a fan of [list of band names].[/list]

[Mara]

Yeah, and it's amazing how many teens in YA novels are really into "retro" music . . . like from when the author was a teen.

[HaroldU]

It doesn't work when it seems forced.

That said, I've got references to SWALLOWS AND AMAZONS in my MG WIP, but since it was published in 1927 in England and few people have read it, I don't think I get cool points for it.

You get cool points from ME! You're making me wish I was working in-house again. Swallows and Amazons is one of the touchstone books of my childhood...

[HaroldU]

Jaina,

I've been noticing this too, in books mentioned already and others I'd have to dredge up from my memory, and I almost put it on my list of Thing to Do to Qualify for the Newbery (a list that of course opens with "Write historical fiction.").

But it can be a feature of MG books, and I think part of the reason is that writers are of course writing for kids who read, and they're establishing that the main character(s) is/are kids who read too.

As with many other things, if it's done well, it's fine. If it's not, it's not.