To Publish-or Not to Publish - On the Web
with Adrianne Fitzpatrick
<whatever> we're ready
<Gail> Great, Adrianne.
<Suzy-Q> Everyone this is Adrianne an editor and writer from down under
<whatever> Adrianne is an editor?
<Suzy-Q> And a great friend
<zbell> hi Adrianne
<Suzy-Q> Adrianne the floor is yours
<Adrianne> thanks, SQ
* Suzy-Q shoots silly string into the air as Adrianne takes the podium
<Katej> good topic
* whatever applauds wildly
<Adrianne> well, as you know, the topic for today is Publishing on the Net
<Adrianne> I'm not leading this workshop as an expert but rather to
generate some discussion over the pros and cons of internet publishing
<Adrianne> so feel free to add your opinions and share your experiences as
<whatever> well, I had a puppy once..... oh, not that kind of
<Adrianne> how many of you have already had work published on the net?
<Dani25> I have
<zbell> not me, in a writer's group though
<Suzy-Q> does e-mail count?
<Adrianne> no, SQ, email doesn't count
<Suzy-Q> Ok then no.
<_MS_SASE> I have some in a couple places
<Katej> I guess I have... as an editor
<Adrianne> yes, Kate - you definitely have!
<Dani25> One article at All Mixed Up
<whatever> I've not, but I've been thinking about it.
<Katej> and so have you, adrianne!
<Gail> Would conducting a workshop mean being published?
<Adrianne> no, Gail
<Adrianne> generally speaking a workshop isn't counted as publishing
<Adrianne> you could write an article based on the workshop though and have
<Adrianne> there seems to be some confusion over what published means
<Adrianne> what is your idea of being published on the net?
<Suzy-Q> Putting something put on a web site for the sole purpose of
others reading it?
<Gail> Having your words appear on a web site.
<_MS_SASE> Having my work online at an e-zine...where they pay me
<Katej> well, it can mean just having one's works on a web page... but
I'd rather get paid too!
<zbell> Lyra has a short story posted on her homepage, would you consider
that being "published"
<whatever> zbell: most definitely yes.
<whatever> any text placed in a publicly-accessible spot, such as a
web page - ANY web page, even a personal one - is PUBLISHED.
<Adrianne> SQ, would someone put something on their website - publicly
accessible - without wanting people to read it?
NOTE: :) & :-) are cyber smiley-faces (You have to look at them sideways to see them properly....)
<Adrianne> okay, anything that is in a position to be read can be termed
*** Adrianne (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has left #Kidlit
<Suzy-Q> Oh no
<whatever> this is not good
<Katej> she'll be back
<Gail> Talk among yourselves. Adrianne has left the room.
<zbell> hey, where'd our speaker go?
<Suzy-Q> Gail take over
<Suzy-Q> Or Kate.
<Gail> Take over what?
<Suzy-Q> I don't know
<whatever> well, she asked a question. any other comments?
<Dani25> Our minds. No, the workshop
<Suzy-Q> You're a teacher.
<zbell> So, we have established that anything that can be read publicly
on the net is considered published
<Gail> I have always been afraid to publish on the net. I may want that
story to go somewhere else later.
*** Adrianne (~email@example.com) has joined #Kidlit
<Suzy-Q> Good she is back!
<Adrianne> sorry, got disconnected
* Suzy-Q ties a rope around Adrianne and anchors her to Gail's and my
<Adrianne> thanks, SQ
<Katej> let's wait a few minutes, see if Adrianne gets back... there she is
<Adrianne> okay, where was I? <sigh>
<zbell> Can you do that Gail, take it "back" and send something to a magazine?
<Adrianne> what was the last thing you saw?
<_MS_SASE> You defined "published"
<Katej> "anything that is in a position to be read can be termed
<Gail> okay, anything that is in a position to be read can be termed
<Suzy-Q> y> okay, anything that is in a position to be read can be
<Adrianne> then I said: how many people get to see it will often determine
how a print publisher views it
<Dani25> Some online magazines let you keep all your rights. Could you
send those pieces out again?
<Katej> Dani, yes.
<Katej> but you might not be able to get it published elsewhere
<Adrianne> most print publishers want first rights
<Adrianne> in the US, they usually ask for first North American rights, yes?
<Katej> yes, Adrianne
<whatever> Adrianne: yes, first nam (north american) rights, or first
<Adrianne> In Australia they ask for first Australian rights
<Adrianne> something published on the net has used up first World Rights
<Adrianne> think about that
<_MS_SASE> Lately, they ask for All Rights...things aren't what they
used to be
<Katej> Keystrokes offers first electronic rights
<Katej> (I think that's right)
* zbell smacking forehead against the wall, "this is more complicated
than I thought"
<Adrianne> okay, zbell, it's really quite simple . . .
<Adrianne> You can still offer a piece to a magazine but usually that means
you're offering Reprint rights
<Dani25> Do magazines accept reprint rights?
<Adrianne> whoever publishes a piece uses up first rights
<Gail> And seeing that magazines have others offering first rights, they
may pass on your piece.
<zbell> And who keeps track of all this, the writer or the publisher?
<Adrianne> if you have already had a piece published, it is your
responsibility and obligation to tell the publisher
<zbell> okay, that makes sense
<whatever> zbell: well, the magazine MAY not find out, but if they do
find out and you lied to them, you will be subject to lawsuits... and
more importantly, you will be blackballed from future publication.
<Adrianne> to reprint it, a magazine won't want to pay the same rate as
first time publication
<Dani25> Hey some money is better than no money :-)
<Gail> I don't look at it that way. I say, "Where is the money?"
<Katej> so the point being, you don't want to publish on the web for
<Sacramento1> I've heard of some writers who sell first writes to
several magazine publishers when their territories do not overlap.
<Adrianne> Sacramento, that depends on how they sell their rights in the
<Sacramento1> This person was dealing with parenting newspapers in
<Dani25> The article I had published, I wrote specifically for the
magazine. I wasn't thinking of placing it somewhere else
<Adrianne> a magazine may be willing to pay the same rate for something
that doesn't cross over readership
<Adrianne> but technically if you sell first rights, you can only sell it
<Adrianne> (first time, that is)
<Adrianne> after that it is technically a reprint
<Adrianne> but as you say, where there is no cross over readership, a
magazine may be - and often is - willing to pay first rights rate
<Adrianne> but once something is published on the net, it is accessible -
for free - to many of the potential readers
<Gail> So these people giving stuff away on the net are cheating
<Dani25> Has anyone heard of a book called The Mole and the Owl? It
was published on someone's website, but a publisher accepted it, anyway
<Adrianne> Dani, that is the exception to the rule
<Adrianne> it happens - just as a self-published book sometimes gets picked
up by a publisher - but it doesn't happen often
<Adrianne> now, I'm not advocating that we never publish on the net
<Katej> well, I hope not, Adrianne! :)
<Adrianne> LOL, Kate
NOTE: LOL =Laughing Out Loud Also: Kate is the editor of Keystrokes, an online newsletter for writers -- which is what made Adrianne laugh at her comment ....
<Adrianne> I just want you to be aware of the Rights issue
<Adrianne> so does that make sense?
<zbell> does to me
<Adrianne> okay, the second issue that I see is that of credibility
<Adrianne> when is publishing on the net a legitimate credit?
<Adrianne> and when does it actually go against you?
<Gail> Good question!
* zbell leaning forward in anticipation
<Dani25> When the place will publish anything, regardless of quality?
<Adrianne> Internet publishing is definitely growing so it's an area to
keep an eye on
<Gail> But it is so easy to plagerize off the net. Ask my former
<_MS_SASE> If you publish on an established site -- one that pays well,
then it is a good credit.
<Adrianne> being paid is obviously one way of recognising a legitimate
NOTE: e-publisher = an e-zine publisher - a publisher on the World Wide Web
<Adrianne> and hopefully a creditable one
<Adrianne> but there are also sites out there which don't pay which can
still be good credits
<Gail> Such as?
<Dani25> Such as?
<Adrianne> do they have a proper screening process as per print publishers
<Adrianne> or do they simply publish anything that comes?
<Gail> But how can you know that?
<Adrianne> Gail, they usually have submission guidelines
<_MS_SASE> Do you think a publisher would really take a credit seriously
in a non-paying web site?
<Adrianne> MS_SASE, why not?
<_MS_SASE> Because the web already is looked down on slightly by some
<Adrianne> other sites will make a point of saying that anyone will get
their work piblished
<Katej> I guess you can ask the editor... and if you read sample issues,
that should tell you if all articles are published or not
<Dani25> Some print publishers don't pay
<Adrianne> you can have stuff published in a print magazine or newsletter
that doesn't pay, and it's still a valid credit
<Dani25> Except in copies, maybe
<Adrianne> Dani, it depends a lot of what you write
<_MS_SASE> I don't think a free print mag = a free web site in the eyes
of the print publishing world yet
<Katej> Ms-SASE, I would say it would depend on a lot of factors: the
print market, the web site, and the subject of the article
<Adrianne> publishers tend to look at circulation rather than the amount
<Adrianne> in poetry there are lots of sites which have good guidelines and
selction processes, no pay but are still highly regarded
<Adrianne> Moondance is one of them which I think still doesn't pay
<_MS_SASE> Oh, ok...though I think poetry is a whole different world
from what I do...I had not thought of that.
<Adrianne> As Kate said, there are lots of factors involved
<Adrianne> Does the e-zine have a good reputation around the net?
<Gail> Take the site ALL MIXED UP. Lots of children's writers are
getting published there, but I don't think it is a good place to get
<Katej> probably more than the three I mentioned ...
<Adrianne> You need to do your research on the different sites
<Adrianne> would you want your work linked with the other work there?
<Adrianne> I've seen some sites which say they carefully select but I
wouldn't offer them any of my work because the standard isn't high
<Dani25> Which sites are those?
<Adrianne> Dani, I can't tell you off the top of my head
<Adrianne> What many writers do is offer ezines work that has already been
published (and paid for) in the print market
<Marianne> Something that really bothers me about a lot of sites is the
amount of typos, it reduces the credibility of the author, I think.
<Adrianne> yes, marianne, it especially means that the work isn't being
edited before it's put out on the site
<Adrianne> I check them out as I find them
<whatever> well, a LOT of web site owners set themselves up as editors,
but don't know proper English.
<whatever> you see its and it's mixed up, for example, and the EDITOR
doesn't know the difference.
<whatever> in fact, I've seen one editor who "fixed" an article to MAKE
it wrong, because he'd seen it's and its done incorrectly too much.
<Dani25> He fixed it <wrong> on purpose?
<whatever> that editor had it's and its mixed up in his mind, so he
thought he was "correcting" the author's mistake, but he was actually
<Dani25> That happened to me. I asked the editor to fix it, and luckily
she did, but I'm sure enough people saw the typos
<Adrianne> unfortunately that happens sometimes even with good editors
<whatever> good editors sometimes make mistakes.... bad editors ALWAYS
<Adrianne> if you get an article published with Inklings, you can guarantee
it's a worthwhile credit
<Adrianne> Keystrokes is heading the same way
<Marianne> Love those sites.
* Katej is glad to know Keystrokes is becoming a credible site
<Adrianne> LOL, sorry kate, didn't mean to sound condescending
<Katej> that's ok :)
<Gail> So what I am getting so far is that it is the roll of the dice.
Sometimes good, sometimes bad, and you may make the wrong choice.
<Adrianne> no Gail, it's a case of doing your homework, exactly as you
would for print markets
<Adrianne> but yes, sometimes, you'll make the wrong choice
<Adrianne> internet publishing is still very new
<Adrianne> it's a risk you take
<Adrianne> until stricter regulations are put into place, it will mean a
lot of work on your part to make sure you're helping your career rather
than hindering it
<whatever> not likely.
<Adrianne> you can still have your work published on the net, but you may
not always want to use it as a credit
<zbell> who do you ask to check out the site to see if it's legitimate?
<Adrianne> zbell, you need to check the site on a regular basis, find out
the kind of work they are publishing and network with other writers
<Adrianne> you'll be surprised at the number of times you'll hear others
warn about a particular ezine or site
<Adrianne> if the email address of authors published at the site is
available, don't be afraid to email them and ask them about their
<whatever> don't be upset if the author doesn't answer...... but don't
be surprised if they do :)
<Adrianne> if you say something nice about their article/story, they'll
almost always answer <g>
<whatever> I dunno. I published my email address in my column once. I
got 5000 nice notes... I only responded to the first two; after that it
was just too overwhelming.
<Dani25> Any credible fiction markets? Would Bedtime Stories count? I
don't remember the URL
<Adrianne> Don't know Bedtime Stories, Dani, so I can't really comment on
<zbell> How do you find these markets? Do a subject search?
<Adrianne> There is a list - Listz or soemthing like that - which has
thousands of zines etc listed
<Adrianne> thanks, marianne
<zbell> Thanks, this is all totally new to me
<Adrianne> The next level of internet publishing which is taking off is
that of e-books
<Adrianne> There are a number of e-publishers which publish and sell
<Adrianne> again, you have to do your homework on them
<Adrianne> or you can get yourself into strife
<Dani25> I don't know if I'd want a book e-published. I like the idea
of a kid picking up my book in a store or a library
<zbell> This room is a good place to ask questions
<whatever> I wouldn't e-publish a book, no.
<Adrianne> Dani, there is a lot of resistance to e-publishing but you need
to think about it as a possible avenue
<whatever> an information pamphlet, maybe. A book, no...
<Adrianne> it will happen
<ClaraRose> I might... ones I think a publisher would pay no mind.
<Adrianne> whether we like it or not
<Dani25> A short story, yeah
<zbell> one of the teachers in our school was predicting a time when
paper publishing would take a second place to net
<Adrianne> A number of authors I know have sold electronic rights to books
which are out of print where the rights have reverted to the author
<whatever> yah, that's a good second avenue.
<Marianne> That would make sense, Adrianne.
<Adrianne> it means that we can still have access to books which the
publishers don't wish to reprint
<Dani25> But they were in print first. I'd do it as a second option
<Adrianne> e-readers are becoming a reality now
<Katej> yes, e-publishing is becoming big business
<ForHim> Do people get paid for e-publications?
<Katej> ForHim, it depends
<Katej> some of them are .. and are quite satisfied
<ForHim> how does that work? I mean, you can't possibly have
<Katej> For, some have royalties
<ForHim> Oh...I see
<Adrianne> Dani, once the technology has been refined, I think you'll find
many books will go straight to e-books
<ClaraRose> I am a newz-e-reader, myself...don't read a paper anymore.
<Marianne> You download it for a fee, right?
<Gail> But the reader has to pay for downloading or something. Right?
And will you get people to pay for that? Won't they just slip over to
another site where it is free, or go to the book store?
<Katej> Marianne, different e-publishers handle it different ways
<Marianne> I see, Katej.
<Adrianne> some e-publishers pay an outright fee
<Adrianne> some pay per book sold
<Katej> I can give you two sites I know of that do e-publishing; they do
it different ways
<Dani25> What do you think of these sites, Kate?
<Katej> Dani, I've talked to the people who have these sites; both of
them are concerned with all the issues you have raised, and more
<Katej> they're concerned with copyrights, and with security
<ClaraRose> O.k. here is my idea ... for self-web publishing...
<ClaraRose> I'll work with my son on a 'living book'... and put some
sample pages on the web... allowing people to order.
<Adrianne> some charge a fee to set up your MS
NOTE: MS = manuscript
<Adrianne> some don't
<Dani25> Well, I'll keep e-books in mind, but I'm still hoping for the
big print contract...someday
<Adrianne> Dani, we all are <g>
<Katej> the interesting thing about e-publishing is that you have the
potential to do things you can't do with print
<ClaraRose> Oh, me too, definitely Dani,.. but some ideas seem to
complicated to easily sell, and I have simply given up hope on them.
<whatever> well, you can have animated stories and stuff.
<Katej> right, whatever
<ClaraRose> mine happens to be ideal.. with press the button and see the
answer type stuff.
<Marianne> Sounds neat, ClaraRose
<PepperAnn32> Did I miss the workshop?
<whatever> no, it's happening now pepper
<Adrianne> yes, Pepper, we're just winding up
<Adrianne^> so Kate, did you have anything else to add - coming from a
different pespective and all
<Katej> about? what in particular?
<Adrianne^> about internet publishing generally - anything we haven't
<Katej> I think the same rules apply to e-publishing as to print
publishing: research your market!
<Adrianne^> any other questions before we wind up?
<Katej> I don't believe e-publishing is going to go away, neither is
<zbell> Thanks for the info Adrianne
<Gail> I feel I am too old to be out there on the cutting edge. I will
continue to look for print publishers to print my stuff. But I will try
to be respectful when folks say they are being printed, with fiction, on
the net. The world is changing.
<Dani25> How do you know when you should send a piece to an online
market instead of a print one?
<Katej> dani, good question.. what do you think?
<Adrianne^> Dani, follow their guidelines
<Katej> good point, Adrianne
<Adrianne^> they'll often tell you how they want a MS presented
<Adrianne^> usually they'll accept email subs but find out if they want in
the body of the message or a particular type of WP format
<Adrianne^> okay, to recap then:
<Adrianne^> be aware of how internet publishing affects your rights
<Adrianne^> check your market
<zbell> I know reading stuff in my e-mail is a pain sometimes when I
have to continually scroll from side to side in addition to up and down
<Adrianne^> zbell, a lot of that has to do with the way the email agent is
<zbell> I try not to go past the "margin" in my screen
<Gail> That is another problem. Reading on line can be tricky. Not
everyone has a 17" screen. Some folks are functioning on a 14" or
smaller. E-reading can be a pain.
<zbell> yup, mine's a 14inch
<Adrianne^> reading on line is also not good for the eyes in the long term
- which is why many print mags won't accept email subs
<ForHim> mine's a 12.1 inch...laptop
<Dani25> That's true, especially when you have to enlargen the type like
<Katej> I just found a site last night that lists guidelines for paying
e-markets... do you know of that site?
<Adrianne^> do you remember what it is, Kate?
<Katej> they e=mailed me for the guidelines of Keystrokes
<Katej> brb... I'll go get it
<Marianne> Great, Katej.
<Katej> actually, there's two of them; be aware I haven't had a chance
to check them out personally yet
<Adrianne^> ok, thanks kate
<_MS_SASE> I have used that site a couple times Kate, it is a good one
<Katej> thanks, MS_SASE
<_MS_SASE> The second guidelines site is not as good, Kate...I had a
terrible time finding anything useful there.
<Katej> thanks for that info, SASE
<Adrianne^> thanks for those, Kate
<Marianne> Me, too, Kate.
<Adrianne^> well, I think that covers everything
<Adrianne^> I hope that's given you enough to think about
<Dani25> Plenty, Adrianne. Thanks
<zbell> as Ducky would say, "Yup, yup, yup!"
<_MS_SASE> Thank you, Adrianne
<Marianne> Great workshop, Adrianne, even though I was late. You helped some of my fears about web publishing.
<Katej> yes, thanks Adrianne
<Gail> Thank you Adrianne!!! Great info, as always.
<ForHim> Thanks Adrianne!
<Adrianne^> no problemo
<Katej> I'll have to check out that first site, then, to see they
<whatever> thanks Adrianne!
<Gail> Look out for SQ's silly string. She has a candy apple for you, I
<zbell> Gail, I thought you got to go to Nationals?
<Adrianne^> SQ, did you get dumped at all?
<Gail> She is probably away from her keyboard. When my husband comes
home, I am also expected to talk to him for a minute or two.
* Adrianne^ stomps her foot hard against the wooden floor . . . SQ!
<Adrianne^> LOL, SQ
<Suzy-Q> I was checking on the bunny
<Adrianne^> did you get dumped at all, SQ?
<Suzy-Q> just lurking
<PepperAnn32> How often do you meet here to chat?
<Adrianne^> there's usually someone here every day, Pepper
<whatever> pepper: we chat every night
<Katej> Pepper, every evening... from 6 pm Pacific time ... on
<whatever> we have a workshop once a week, usually
<Gail> I am not going to Nationals this year. Maybe next.
<zbell> I discovered this room about a week and a half ago
<Adrianne^> I don't make it very often because of the time difference
<Katej> this is your lunch time, Adrianne, right?
<Adrianne^> just as well I work for myself! <g>
<zbell> What is the time difference in Australia from the states?
<Gail> This is the middle of the day for you, Adrianne. Right?
<PepperAnn32> I had trouble getting in but I think I figured it all out
<Adrianne^> just hit 12.00 Kate
<PepperAnn32> I'm from Tennessee
<ForHim> 12:00 tomorrow. :o)
<zbell> Adrianne is from the future?
<ForHim> She is.
<Gail> She is from the future. Wednesday.
<Adrianne^> yes, Z
<Marianne> She holds tomorrow's answers for today.
<Adrianne^> I wish!!!
<ForHim> So Adrianne...what are the winning PowerBall numbers?
<Adrianne^> So are we finished with the workshop now?
<Adrianne^> Gossip time?
<zbell> 4 Gossip?
<Gail> GOSSIP TIME!!!
* zbell perks up
* Adrianne^ grins wickedly
* Suzy-Q takes the mic down.
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